Episode 21: New Marriage, Same Couple, an interview with Josh and Katie Walters

Welcome to our podcast– The Jess Connolly Podcast!

If you’ve ever wished for another couple to be honest about the hardest days of their marriage and to compassionately give you insight into how you can have a new marriage with the same couple, this episode and this new book we’re reading in our Leaders are Learners book club is for you. 

Listen to ⁠Josh⁠ and ⁠Katie Walters⁠ share with Jess about their book ‘New Marriage, Same Couple’. It’s about the gospel, about redemption, and it will still be a great resource as you lead right where you’re at. If your marriage is great and you want it to stay that way, if your marriage is lackluster and you’ve lost hope, if you’re on the absolute worst day of your marriage - this episode is for you. 

Let’s Go.

Don’t Miss:

⁠⁠Leaders are Learners!⁠⁠ Join Jess’ book club ⁠here⁠, where you’ll read transformative books together– we currently are reading ‘New Marriage, Same Couple’’ By Josh and Katie Walters. You’ll get insider info from the authors and a space to call in and share your own thoughts on the podcast!

Pre-order one copy of ⁠Tired of Being Tired⁠ and get the audiobook for free (when it’s released), you’ll also get access to ⁠Real Rest Now,⁠ an exclusive podcast series for tired women. 

Love our podcast? Then we know you’ll love the ⁠GoodHard Story Podcast with Katherine Wolf⁠. Sit in on candid conversations with Katherine, the Hope Heals team, and some beloved guests as they work out what it means to wholeheartedly live a good/hard life.

⁠Join Go Teams! ⁠Go Teams are for the women who are called (specifically to small business, writing, ministry, or business) and need equipping. They’re for the women who are desperate to make their callings about God and His glory. They’re for the women who feel stuck — either before they start or once they’re in the thick of it.

Episode Transcript:

Hey friends, I'm Jess Connolly.

I'm an author, a coach, a Bible teacher and a local church leader.

And I love talking to real people who know what it means to have full lives but also want to walk in abundance.

This podcast is for you.

It's not my podcast, it's ours.

0:19

It's for people who crave light hearted conversations and deeply spiritual truth.

It's for people who are busy, tired, waiting, growing, dreaming, working, or praying about what's next.

Wherever you're listening from, if it's quiet, mundane or busy, I am praying for you.

0:39

And I'm so glad you're here.

Let's go.

Hey friends, I'm here with a quick disclaimer before you listen to this episode.

I love and I am so grateful for you guys telling me that you sometimes listen to the podcast with your kids in the car or nearby.

0:56

But I want to let you know up front this episode is not safe for smaller ears.

Hit pause and come back when you're alone.

We're going to talk about some sensitive marriage topics and you're going to hear from a guest on the podcast.

This is not our norm.

It won't be our norm moving forward, but we are keeping it in the episode and not editing it out because the passion of the moment fits the subject matter and it was genuine to the discussion.

1:21

You might not even catch it.

The real disclaimer, however, for this episode is that you're going to notice a lot of coughing.

You're probably going to notice that more than you notice the four letter word.

It was flu season.

No one was contagious, but there were some coughs that we ultimately couldn't edit out and we apologize.

1:39

All that to say, this is still a do not miss episode and we know God is going to use it to change lives, so let's go.

I don't know a married person who hasn't maybe dreamed about how their life might be different if they married a different person.

1:58

Maybe for some of us that sounds like a nightmare.

And maybe for a lot of us, that feels like an imaginary pass out of a relationship that is currently so hard we don't feel like we can keep going in it.

If you've ever wished for another couple to be honest about the hardest days of their marriage and to compassionately give you insight about how you can have a new marriage with the same couple, this episode and this new book we're reading in Our Leaders, Our Learners Book Club is for you.

2:26

This book is written by my sister and brother-in-law, two of the most important people in my life, and they're also the two people who have helped me fight for my marriage the most.

If you're single, this episode and this book is still for you.

It's about the gospel, about redemption, and it's an incredible resource as you lead and love and serve people right where you're at.

2:46

If your marriage is awesome and you want it to stay that way, this book is for you.

If your marriage is lackluster and maybe you've lost hope that it could ever be something better, this book is for you.

If you are on the absolute worst day of your marriage, I pray that you are encouraged and seen and heard.

3:06

And I know you will be in this episode.

Let's go.

All right.

Every couple needs a couple.

I think a couple and maybe a couple of people who will fight for them, who will fight for their marriage.

3:22

You guys are that couple for us.

But I'm thrilled to get to all right.

Every couple needs a couple.

I think a couple and maybe a couple of people who will fight for them, who will fight for their marriage.

You guys are that couple for us.

3:40

But I'm thrilled to get to share you with everybody else today, just for a little bit.

Like I get you back.

But so I thought we'd start by sharing one of our favorite stories to tell, because we're storytellers about one of the times you had to fight for my marriage before I was even married.

3:56

So should I start and you finish?

I mean, I know exactly which story where you're going to tell us, so go ahead.

OK, Katie's weightlifting days.

So I'll set the scene for you.

The year was probably 2003, maybe 2002, 2003.

You guys were, no, you were definitely married.

4:14

So it was probably 2003.

You guys were married, probably pregnant with your first baby.

Maybe that's where your energy came from.

Passion and Nick and I were dating.

We were not yet engaged and we were going through a really rough season.

And I just remember that for whatever reason, we felt safe to come over and fight in front of you guys, which we still do, all of us.

4:37

And so we were like, we're going to go over to their house and work this out.

And I was probably not being reasonable.

I think I was probably being pretty emotional.

I do remember what I said.

I don't want to repeat it.

You have to.

I think, I think I was like.

Tell me I'm beautiful.

4:54

Yes, tell me I'm beautiful.

Just tell me.

I'm beautiful over and over again.

And I mean, OK, so we had known Nick probably a year at this point.

Maybe two.

Yeah, yeah, maybe more than that.

Maybe two, 2 1/2 years.

5:10

I should have known Mick Connolly by this.

Point like he.

Does not play.

He doesn't enter into our crazy.

But see, Josh entered into my crazy, he did.

He would like chase me down the street.

He you know.

That's a cyclone of he.

You can't.

He he he was not like over it at all.

5:28

He was.

He didn't try to be the bigger person.

He would just chase me down.

I was learning from you so you'd get out of the car and go running if you got a fight and Josh would chase you down.

If I got out of the car and go running and the middle of the fight, would he's like, see ya.

I'm not.

I do that more.

Now, now, yeah, 22 years later, but in the early days.

5:46

If you're still getting out of the car.

And running, I know.

Is it OK 22 years?

It's really not and there would.

Be a problem there would.

Be a problems that have way too much.

More.

We make it sound like it happens all the time.

It hadn't happened in at least four months.

It's going.

To Oh my gosh, Stop.

Whatever.

6:02

So this time I'm screaming.

OK, so you're screaming and like, tell me I'm beautiful.

Tell me I'm beautiful.

And he's just standing there, stoic, like solid as a rock blank face.

And he's not saying a word back.

And so this goes on and on, like you're jumping up and down and I'm thinking like this boy better open his flipping mouth.

6:23

I mean, I'm getting more and more mad.

Fire is like coming from my ears.

I can feel it.

And all the sudden, not only does he not answer, he starts to head for the door.

Out.

Like, he is going to leave.

Oh no, no.

6:38

I have way too many abandonment issues for that, for me and you.

I was like, this is not happening.

So I don't even know what came over me.

But all of a sudden this is the infamous moment is that we had this couch.

Now it's probably from like rooms to go very thin, you know, small.

6:55

No, no, no, no.

No couch.

It was actually from big.

Lots.

That's what I was.

Going to say it was a big.

Lot, Yeah.

And Green and Katie gets up off the couch in some way, like manhandles the loveseat and throws it from where it currently is blocked, slides all the way across the room.

7:14

You're not.

Lock the door.

I was like, tell her she's beautiful.

It's like you will not leave this house till you tell her that she's beautiful.

The most crazy thing is I said I don't think he actually said that.

No, I don't think, he said.

He will not be manipulated, no.

7:32

He.

Will not.

But so now we say it's like a part of our vocabulary, like you need somebody who will throw a couch for you.

It's so you need somebody who will throw a couch for you.

And what I'm here to tell you is that this couple has fought for us.

I mean physically sometimes for our marriage, but if you're hopeful for a couple that will fight for your marriage, that is what you guys do for people.

7:56

I mean, I know y'all and you have seven kids, you run a small business, you're a pastor at a very large church.

But I know that multiple nights of the week I can find you at some couple's house fighting for them, fighting with them.

So I want to just talk a little bit about that and I want to talk about why this book is so important.

8:16

But first, before we get into it, I didn't prep you for this question, but I want to say like, what is this book not?

I would say it's not.

You know, we were talking to a couple the other day and they had just been reading The Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller, which we love Tim Kellerman.

8:32

Who doesn't love Tim Keller?

We were actually doing that study in a small group when our marriage like hit the fan and all hell broke loose.

But what I would call that book is very like theological, like a theology of marriage.

This is not really that.

8:49

I mean it is very gospel oriented, you know, hopefully, but it's real practical, raw, vulnerable, the pain of our story and then really the practical principles that it took for us to stay through pain and rebuild.

So I would say is it's not a heady book, it's not a theology book.

9:06

It's really, you know, our story and practical tools.

Would you say that?

Yeah.

And I would probably add that there's a lot to marriage that we all share, like the presentation of the way that we act around people who are at a restaurant or at church.

9:21

And then there's like the the Tuesday night that is oddly emotional and raw and real.

And so I think it's raw in the sense of like we really talk about the stuff that I think we all experience but oftentimes struggle to know what to do with like how do I take this to God and and deal with it.

9:42

It's so transparent.

You guys are so generous in that way in this book.

I will say, having had read the book, it is so generous in its transparency, in y'all's transparency, Even knowing y'all, there were paragraphs I read that I was like, I don't know that anyone's ever said that out loud before and we all needed to hear it.

9:59

But I do think it's a theology book.

I mean, like that's humble of you to say that, but it's to me, it is a book about redemption.

It is a book about forgiveness.

So I want to ask you this because I feel like we've talked about it a lot privately, but from my perspective, I just want to say it doesn't read like a book that is encouraging every couple to stick it out and white knuckle it like with no variations.

10:26

You know what I'm saying?

And I would love for you guys to speak to that a little bit.

Well, I think the generation prior to us potentially stayed through really difficult circumstances, even more so, you know, than our generation.

The thing that we're trying to communicate in this book is that there is definitely a fracture and endurance in our culture in our generation.

10:45

Yeah, we really don't know how to stay through pain.

We don't have to.

We have had the privilege of not having to stay in any job, any church, any city.

Yeah, you know, and so I think marriage is similar in that way and that there's a huge move in the culture towards happiness and getting your needs met and fulfilling your own desires and that none of that correlates with staying through pain and through like an enduring love.

11:11

Yeah.

And so I think that's our heart is the, that's what we're trying to communicate is the fact that you really need to prepare for pain.

You need to prepare for these seasons.

It doesn't have to always look like us.

We hope it doesn't look like our devastating season.

But we know every single couple that we have ever talked to that have been married more than, you know, 5 minutes.

11:31

It's much less five years, 10 years.

They've had to stay through these seasons of pain.

Last night we were at dinner with a couple celebrating their 20th anniversary.

There was another couple there that had been married 12 years.

And they were that couple that, like if you saw them, you would just think like, well, they picked right.

11:47

Like they both are wired similar.

You know, they just going to get along easy.

They're kind of seem like loyal people, like they're not going to go through the hell we went through.

And then yet, even last night they looked at this couple of them married 20 years and said there were so many nights that we had to say to ourselves, like, what would Nate and Care do?

12:07

Because we did not want to be together anymore.

Like, we thought we've chosen wrong.

Like we weren't made for each other.

So it was just so incredible to see, like even the couple that you think in your minds like, oh, well, it's just easier for them.

Yeah, it's definitely not, you know.

12:22

Yeah, and I think culturally, everyone stands at the altar and sincerely means better, worse, richer, poor, sickness, health.

But everybody only dreams about better, richer, healthier.

So as soon as you hit worse, Yeah.

12:38

Like there's no bottom to that.

You can't even fathom the, like, emptiness, loneliness, pain, Right.

And you think this isn't what I signed up for?

Yeah, it's actually exactly what you signed up for.

Yeah, and.

So I would say it's a book about like we all hit some version of that low and when you get to that place, it's like, man, God is close to the broken hearted say so.

12:59

They're crushed in spirit.

So as lonely or broken or hopeless as you may feel, it's actually like one of the best places you can because you can't just manufacture desperation.

So when you get there in your marriage, it's like, man, then you can really see God start to do something special.

13:15

So good, y'all are not only the couple I come to for helping my marriage, you're also the couple I come to for wisdom when I'm helping other people in their marriage.

And I feel like I've heard you say, and it's obviously also in the book, but there there's like an equation of like if both are willing to.

13:33

Will you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah.

So we just say, I mean, you know, marriage is going to take two people working together, but if one person starts to change, the whole relationship changes.

And there was a huge season for us, which I mean, this is, you know, our specific story.

13:49

And that's the thing about the book, is that it's principles that can help anyone in any unique circumstance because our marriages are all so unique to us.

You know, not one single one is the same.

But there was this long season for us where I was willing to stay in the house in relationship, but my heart was not in it.

14:07

Yeah, you know, I was still really dreaming about somewhere else.

I was still.

We have this whole section of the book called Take Quitting Off the Table.

And I really was quitting.

And Josh always says people quit long before they leave.

So I feel like I was distracted.

14:22

I was dreaming outside of my relationship.

I was coveting still other people's life and, you know, things like that.

And Josh was able to continually cast vision for me, pray, you know, believe for us.

So we don't believe that.

It's always 100 percent, 100%.

14:38

Yeah.

Like from both parties.

That's part of the staying through pain.

Yeah.

But it does take two people willing to be committed to the covenant to, if trust has been broken, rebuild trust.

You know, repent.

That kind of thing.

Yeah.

And I would say even in that season, you would say things like, I don't know that I love you anymore.

14:57

I don't know that I want to be here.

So like, for anybody else in the room, all signs were that there only two people here willing to work.

And so I think in in marriage, especially in the difficult seasons, it can seem as if one person isn't there.

15:12

But for me, the hope in that season was she's physically here.

And while she's here, man, there's hope, 'cause I can pray over her.

While she's.

Sleeping.

I can serve her when she gets home, you know, if there's proximity and God could do anything.

And she left, but it just felt like in that season.

15:29

Well, if she's not sure, then I'm gonna.

I'm gonna show her why she should be.

Yeah, keep showing up for her.

And not be.

Hurt or pushed away or you know.

By the words, and I think that's why we have so much passion about meeting with couples is because when you really have felt that low, nothing scares you.

15:48

And you know, I think about that with you and Nick.

Like, how have we all this time been able to stay focused on fighting for the two of Y'all?

Because we've known God put you together.

Like we've known it with all of our heart.

So we've known that even in the the pain of it, even in you both having to shift and change, it's going to be for your good, you know, and for the glory of God.

16:10

And I think just that's what it takes to have somebody who really believes in you, who's fighting for you, who knows that you are the solution to your own great marriage.

You know that you becoming like Nick and Nick becoming like Jess isn't the goal.

Yeah, but actually like the two of you together, building your house, Yeah.

16:28

Is gonna be the best for both of you, for your legacy, for generations.

It's easy for us to believe that because we've felt it in our own life.

And then you obviously can see it so clearly sometimes in other people, like you look at their unique differences and what beauty there is when those two people come together.

16:48

And, you know, that's part of our story too, is that, you know this, but, you know, our parents, you know, when they got divorced when we were younger, a marking moment for us was when we had Anna Jay and dad and mom were in the room together and there was this longing of like, what could have been, you know?

17:06

And I think in our story growing up, I mean, we have incredible step parents and God's done such a beautiful thing.

But, you know, we think back to that moment a lot when we were having Anna Jay and just think, like, gosh, if they would have been willing, if they could have been able to stay through that pain, what could God have done?

17:26

Yeah, and.

That's where I think the crazy thing in that is I found out my junior year of high school that my dad had been married before he had actually gotten engaged to my mom, broke off that engagement, married another woman who ran off on him, then came back to my mom.

17:42

And it was like, man, had he not gotten a divorce from that woman, like man, I wouldn't be here, right?

So in terms of what the book is and isn't, it's like, man, his grace, come on, it's sufficient.

I can't make sense of his kindness and how he moves and works, but I know there's few things that he hates in scripture, and that divorce is one of those.

18:01

And he makes allowance for it when our hearts are hardened and there's grace for a new day.

But yeah, man, and seeing him show up for us in our moments of of pain, I think part of why it's such a passion point.

Now, I forget the reference, but you know the praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of compassion and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all of our troubles so that we can comfort others with the comfort we ourselves have received from Christ.

18:26

Yeah.

So it's like a supernatural transfer and that, like, man, once you've been marked by his love and grace and kindness in a way, like you can't not empathize on a deeper level, have hope for people that are hopeless, want to step in and point them to what could be.

18:43

Yeah.

And the lens is through the road we walked.

And so it's not that, you know, our way is the way it's got to be or it's the only way, but it was God's way for us.

And so it's the lens we've got to pass on to people.

Yeah, one thing I love about you guys, like not just in the marriage realm, but like one thing I love about both of you and if you've never heard me share the story, I mean, I think I might only be married because of y'all.

19:11

And I think I actually, I actually was thinking about it this morning.

And I was thinking, you know, I really only kind of saw a vision for my life of like, the beauty of marriage because you guys got married.

And I was like, that looks great.

19:27

And Nick and I just both had the honor of knowing you in your engagement, dating, engagement, marriage season.

And I think even for Nick, I mean something like, you know, the whole story of our lives.

Nick and I were friends in high school.

You guys knew him when we were friends.

Nick, like, fell in love with you guys as friends.

19:44

And then we started dating.

I don't know.

I think watching the beauty of Y'all's relationship made us say, like, this could be really beautiful, like this could be a a great part of our lives, you know?

But I also don't know that I'd be following Jesus.

I'm sure I would.

I'm sure he would have got me somehow.

20:01

But the story of how it worked out is that I am following Jesus because because you had a radical life change and like came back for me as the language I use and said like this is for you too, you know, But.

One thing that I love about you guys, just as leaders and pastors and humans, is that you never try to balance grace and truth.

20:23

And a lot of times on the podcast we'll say, you know, if somebody's asking how do I balance something you don't, you don't balance it.

You just go full on for both.

And that's what this book is too, for me, is that, like, there's no balancing act.

It is full on truth, like God hates divorce.

20:40

The union is beautiful.

We are gonna be faced with a million reasons, probably a billion from day one of why we could give up on people and why we could give up on a union.

And also you don't try to balance that with the grace of and we would never advocate someone staying in a harmful abusive situation.

21:01

There's no balancing act.

Both of those things are true And so I know you guys have counseled so many people in in absolutely like toxic, abusive situations.

I have to there's no balancing act there.

It's like, no, you don't stay somewhere harmful, you know.

21:17

But I want to just say that I do wish I'd had this book when when you guys were going through your hard marriage season, which we're gonna get to in a second, because I know that I did not one thing right.

I mean, I first of all, I was like a child.

I was like 22.

21:34

But I know that I didn't do one thing right.

I didn't give one piece of good advice, I don't think.

I think even when I tried to give godly advice, it was so harmful, which is some of our more funny stories now you and I can laugh about, but some of them we probably can't laugh about, probably that we're just too harmful.

21:54

But it does make me want to just say like a special caveat of Again, this is another another reason why if you're single, this is still a book for you to read.

But also if you're like, oh, my marriage is fine, this is a good book for read because your friends are going to go through it in their marriage and having language and having tools and having insight so that you cannot be like Job's friends, You know, either saying like, yeah, he sucks, get out or you know what I'm saying?

22:24

Or being the one that's like, I don't know, sounds fine.

Count your blessings.

I'm sure it's fine.

You know, like people need this book.

Well, the interesting thing is, and I think back on this, on our story, is that people are hurt by the consequences of your sin, you know, even if in our story.

22:41

So when I had an affair, I was hiding, of course, from Josh, but I was hiding from you as well.

Like I was hiding from everyone.

And I was manipulating and you kind of put on certain things for certain people that you want them to see and things that you don't.

So when something happens in one of your friends, lives in another couple, and we've watched this happen time and time again, and we're watching it happen right now, is that the covenant has been shattered.

23:06

That's who the vow was made to.

But then the friends are hurt, like they think it was done to them.

And I think the most important thing to realize if you want to fight for your friends marriage is just to remember like it really isn't about you.

Yeah, they have broken covenant with their spouse and that really isn't about, it's really not about you.

23:25

And they've got to.

There's something about that season that for us, the reason why we went and trade it is it lets you win.

All hell breaks loose and shit hits the fan.

Often times it helps you prioritize, like, what is real and what is right.

And we had to learn to go to like A10 with each other and everyone else at 2:00.

23:46

And I remember when I was first learning that I was like, wait, what do you mean like my mom and my sister, right, A2, compared to our marriage, that's never going to happen, right?

Like, I did not think that was physically possible.

Yeah, but this can happen if there's sickness, if there's betrayal, if there's addiction, if there's mental health issues.

24:03

You know, when things like this happen, you have to really focus in on the new family identity that God's given you.

And so I think for the friends around, the best way to love people is just to really have to constantly remind yourself, like, this is not about me.

Yep, this is about them and them rebuilding.

24:20

I can give them wisdom from that perspective.

Yeah, more easily than if it's.

You know, if I'm offended if I'm hurt, I.

Think the other thought that comes to mind for the couples who would say, like, my marriage is good or we're great, Or for the single folks, it's like nobody gets married or walks through great seasons of marriage with eyes out for trouble that's coming their way.

24:42

And so, right, looking back now, and we talk about it a lot in the book, it's like, man, had I had the, like humility to receive wisdom and apply it to my life instead of shake my head.

Yes, knowing full well like I ain't doing that, you know?

24:58

It's like I can play out our story so differently to think like, man, what would have happened had I just listened.

And and I think often times and we were the same couples think they're the exception.

They can navigate this path in their own way.

They can apply wisdom sometimes, not all the time.

25:16

Yeah, they're gonna be fine.

But like, we're all gonna face trouble.

Yep.

And we're all gonna have to navigate that.

And I think it, our story just paints a picture of times where wisdom is available and we don't take it.

And there's real consequences to that.

25:32

It's so funny.

OK, so somebody asked me this question about it totally relates to Y'all's book 100%.

Somebody asked me this question about tired of being tired.

It was Sharon Miller and I was doing an interview with her and she said, tell me what changed for you.

Essentially she was like, because basically what I know to be true is everything in this book you probably already kind of knew before you had this fatigue breakdown.

25:53

So like, what changed?

And I said I stopped making little exceptions.

And I think the same is probably true for marriage.

Like in the way you talk to them and the way you view them and the way you forgive them and the way you handle.

Well, when you find yourself at that place in marriage, all the sudden you see like, man, I remember we were so hardcore for a season and that, like with the kids, every other Disney show is a single parent.

26:19

Yeah, and their kids.

And not almost like normalizing single parenting, which not obviously that it's a bad thing, but just getting kids and people comfortable with the vision of one parent.

Yeah, charting through life.

And so that The Bachelor is like, my goodness, I think we had seen every season up to that point and it was like, you know, so with our sexuality, bodies, relationship, marriage.

26:44

With hiding with confession, sin.

We, you know, we call it confession therapy.

But like, we don't hide anything.

Yeah.

You know, and I was hiding everything.

Yeah.

But like, once you've tasted that freedom that actually built intimacy, you know, we say this covenant can handle so much.

27:00

Yeah.

But people just hide.

And then it, you know, puts that wedge between them.

The songs you're saying the.

The songs you sing you.

Find yourself at a place where what matters most to you, which you've always labeled as like, lifelong or certain, is shaky at best.

27:16

Then all the sudden you start like evaluating every influence and voice in your life and realizing man, the scales are tipped for this thing not to happen just by way of the voices we've we've LED in our.

People close to us, if we think, I don't know, I don't know if they're going to make it, we say that.

27:34

Yeah.

We say, like, hey, this seems dangerous, right?

Like, you know, if I'm looking around at the 10 couples that we know and I have to choose one that I'm wondering if they're going to endure, it's you.

Like, you'll say that now you just have eyes wide open.

27:49

Yeah.

Or how much cultivating this love you know takes to have a strong covenant?

It's so risky.

It's so, I mean, it's like, I don't think we need to be scared of marriage.

And I don't think we need to walk around scared ever of anything of like the betrayal around the corner or the thing around the corner.

28:06

But I do think we need to know what we'll do when it happens.

I do think we need to know what we'll do when our spouse disappoints us.

I think we do need to know what we'll do when they go through a hard season or when they have a character issue or, you know, or what we'll do when we do that.

OK, we're gonna take a quick break and then when we come back, I want you guys to just share a snippet of Y'all's story.

28:31

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29:30

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Hey friends, I want to make sure that you know about GO teams.

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29:50

During GO Teams, we coach women who are called to communicating, ministry, small business or writing.

So if you have a desire to move forward in any of those areas, or if you're already doing them and you just want to grow or get unstuck, GO Teams is for you.

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I coach you in your particular team for six different sessions and then we bring in outside industry experts who can answer literally, literally any question you have.

Then I do group coaching with your team in particular.

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31:02

So we would love to have you see the link in the show notes to get on the wait list for GO Teams 2024.

OK.

I don't want you guys to tell your whole story because as you know, I would actually really enjoy people would buy this book and we have the leaders or learners book club.

31:20

And I'm gonna tell you how to join it at the end of this episode.

But I don't want you to sleep on this book.

But I do know that people could probably, if they don't like, really pay attention which, you know, none of us are really paying attention on the Internet.

They could look at Y'all's Instagram, or they could go to your website, or they could see you on Facebook Live and be like Must be Nice So I know the wild authority and insight you have comes from pain and heartache, but will you give a peek into that world for our podcast listener?

31:52

I would say we were that from go.

Like we were the first among our friends to get married.

And I was the one not looking for a girl in that season.

And the day I met her went home and told my roommate I was going to marry that girl.

And so from the beginning, it was a little ridiculous because I was like, Oh my gosh, sold out.

32:11

I was there.

It was a little ridiculous.

It was kind of all the laundry flowing and.

Yeah, I mean, I was.

Flowers on.

The thing I had to work for a while because she didn't quite share the deep admiration.

Oh.

She did.

She did.

32:26

She was Smit.

Head game?

Yeah, so, so.

That was, that was the that was the beginning.

And so for our story, it was very much one of those.

Like we see that kind of stuff happen all around us, but that's, yeah, never gonna be us.

32:42

Oh my gosh, I used to tell him all the time, like, I just think we have the most incredible love.

No one has a love like us.

He's like, well, we've been married about six months, so let's go easy on that.

You know I.

Definitely say that a night now.

This is a total 7 move.

It's so true.

32:58

Yeah.

So we, one, I would say in terms of families of origin, which we've talked about, had other, you know, pictures and stories live down for us.

And so, as much as we were committed to one another, having experienced the realities of divorce and having abandonment issues herself, like I would say we were casual whenever we would get in an argument with maybe we just need to get a divorce, or maybe we shouldn't be to get what she now even saying sounds so absurd.

33:28

So you would be casual with it?

Oh yeah, early on, if we would get in an argument.

I never knew that.

Yeah, it was like.

Or I would always tell him my my line was like you wanted to marry somebody who just smiled and nodded like you got me.

33:44

You chose wrong.

Yeah, like I'm not docile.

Yeah, you know, that would be like.

And so early on we were, I would say we're both like Katie's A7 on the Enneagram, I'm a three, but we are both like very active hard working And so we were acquiring rental properties, we were flipping, getting our master's degrees, started having babies, had full time jobs.

34:08

We were like burning margin in our life, fast and hard on both ends.

Thinking like this is what adulting feels like, Working really hard, doing your best to provide.

And so over time, seven years in what I thought was normal hustle and adulting and drift, we were still having sex, going on date night, getting away, doing the behaviors that would seem seem healthy, like her heart had just drifted.

34:37

And I didn't even realize in that season that I wasn't really shepherding her heart or really listening to what her needs were.

And so she began to kind of dream outside of our relationship.

And even from a Pride perspective, we looked back on that season and we were the most spiritual people in the room.

34:59

And now that we're in a totally different church culture and context and we got here so broken.

Like, we can't even fathom that.

I mean, even our small group who are not on staff are not pastors.

We still say they're like pastors to the pastors.

Yeah, we just really recognize that we're learner and we're definitely not the most inspiring or spiritual people in any room.

35:23

We're in my room.

Well, that's definitely not true.

But I don't know, looking back on that time, like that was one element of our story too, that we wouldn't have called that hiding.

But it's obviously a very effective way to hide is to like think that you're the leader, you know?

35:40

The the real pain points.

Yeah.

When we were would experience them yeah.

Talking about that with anybody really and so.

So, yeah, so in our story we're, we were semi isolated in that way like you know in in the way of having you know mentors or real community things like that until another couple came and moved into our small church that we were in.

36:03

And so we say you know the boundary line started to be very like blurred with them.

You know, we were drinking together most nights out that we moved in two houses down from them, you know, So it's kind of, I think in culture a lot of people that we see have these very close friendships that you're like, hmm, that's interesting, you know that the guys and girls text each other and that, but that was definitely us.

36:27

You know, we were in that for and.

I all youth workers, there really wasn't anybody else our age.

And so yeah, just lines got blurred.

So I was definitely having what I would know now is an emotional affair for at least a year where I was dressing for him, thinking about him, wondering if he was flirting with me, you know, those kind of things.

36:47

And and the enemy just waits in territory like that.

You know, when we always say nobody wakes up to have an affair?

Yeah.

But looking back on it, I'm like, Oh my gosh, we were walking just on such a thin.

Yeah, and in a thin, thin place for a long time.

And then we had my son Abel on May 29th, and he was in the NICU.

37:07

And it was that day that he had asked to go back into the back with me to the NICU.

You'd only have one other person.

And that's kind of when it was like said, you know, hey, I think I have feelings for you.

And so from May 29th to, I confess to Josh on August 8th.

37:24

And so that whole summer, I say was just a pit of hell, you know, trying to figure out, could I leave my family.

I have three kids.

You know, what would it look like to be with this other man?

Really just putting my whole heart into a whole another situation, dreaming about a whole another family.

37:43

And still we say the night of the confession, I don't even know how the words came out of my mouth because the girl comes over crying.

She's like, something's wrong with my marriage.

She's like, I think there's someone else.

Josh is like, no, I know your husband.

That would never happen.

You know, he's like, consoling her.

37:59

And she goes to leave.

And I just looked at Josh and was like, what if it's me thinking that would never leave our couch?

I don't even know what I thought, but I just thought, I'll tell him that maybe it'll create some distance between us.

Yeah, but no one will ever know.

38:15

Yeah, you know the real story.

And instead that night was like a scene from Desperate Housewives or something.

We're all in the front yard, lawn screaming, crying, broken.

The church Astros, not to come back when he went to tell the pastors, we ended up those next six months, just like in no man's land.

38:32

But one thing that we have talked to a lot of couples about who have been in this place or any other place of addiction, betrayal, things like that, is that it was not a quick healing or a quick cutting off like from that first moment of confession.

And Josh talks about this a lot in the book, is that, you know, when somebody's in the dark, then they stub their toe or you don't blame them because they're in the dark.

38:55

They don't know what they're doing.

And there was a long season of that where, like I said, I was staying in the house, but I was still really struggling with my own shame, my own cycles of shame.

I would keep kind of reaching back out to the guy.

Or if he would reach out, I would reach back really just wanting to not feel like a monster, you know, like, well, he's not a monster.

39:17

So I must not be a monster.

All of that to say, like, none of that is the gospel, obviously, but you really have to like, it takes so long to come to this fact of, like, I am so sinful and I don't outgrow the cross.

Yeah, and really recognizing like the depravity of the whole situation.

39:33

Yeah, and in marriage or an affair, in this case, it's like there's so many.

If it came out that your spouse or loved one was like crack addiction, you know, it's like, you know, there's some stuff happening in their body, stuff happening in their brain that you don't see or understand, but it's something they're really going to have to work through.

39:54

And with this kind of issue, when it's another relationship, you think just cut it off and be done, why do they keep going back?

But for her, it's like, man, there was endorphins being released.

There was the the rush of sneaky naughty anticipation looking forward to all of those things were happening.

40:13

And so it was just a lot messier than.

Than you would think.

And so even now we meet with couples who are so hurt by that like wooing in the back and forth and don't understand why it can't just be over when it's like man sin has a way of enticing and drawing and wooing you in that man.

40:34

It can be really hard to just sever a yeah relationship and rebuild.

And I appreciate you saying that, Josh, because of course, now like this many years later, I know there are people who are listening to that and being like you had a hormonal imbalance.

You were going through trauma, like, really?

40:49

Like this was Zen, but like your body was not helping it, You know, like, and then right.

The endorphins of keeping something secret and then feeling that hit day after day.

And like, I mean, there are so many things at play there that absolutely.

Did you need confession or repentance?

41:05

Yes.

And also, did you need compassion?

Yeah.

Or the trauma that was going on inside your.

Body and vision.

I mean, this was the and that's where the title of the book, New Marriage, same couple really comes from.

Because Josh, I would bring him all these journals, these old journals where I was calling him nicknames like Snooki, Boo, Boo, you know, all this stuff.

41:24

And I would tell him like, I don't feel this way for you anymore.

And I don't think I'm ever gonna feel this way.

I mean, he could have looked at me and said, you're right, You don't feel this way because you've now taken all those endorphins and giving them to someone else, you know, with like, the brand newness of lust.

41:40

Yeah.

And love and what you think is love.

That's all lust and passion, you know?

But instead he was like, you know, I'm asking you to go to a new place, a deeper place of love.

Yeah.

And that vision, I mean, was the most compassionate thing he could have given me because he helped me see like we're not trying to get.

41:59

Back to that.

Come on.

You know, we're going to go someplace deeper.

We're going to go place someplace stronger.

Yeah.

And I couldn't even fathom that.

I mean, I remember like, it was yesterday, the night that he said that, and I couldn't even fathom, like, what the heck is he talking about, right.

42:14

But it was enough of a glimmer of hope that I was like, what if he's right?

Like, what if there is more to love than what I know?

What if this is self love?

Yeah, you know, and part of getting married and part of this covenant is understanding love, which I don't think you do.

42:32

You know, over time we on our ten year anniversary, I wrote him this card and I was like, I think I'm just starting to love you.

Yeah.

I mean just starting you know that's that's a that's a long time I.

Remember Nick and I having a similar awakening on our ten year anniversary?

42:49

And I I remember saying something to him like while we were on a 10th anniversary trip, saying something along the lines of, like, I think I'm going to love you.

If you really screw it all up, I think I'll stay with you.

And he was like, good to know.

Now it's.

So.

43:06

True.

On a deeper note, Katie, I want to just pause.

And I just in my spirit, I sense that there are some women listening who just heard you say like, and I was dressing for him.

And I think that I don't know, like, I don't think we're talking about emotional affairs the way we used to.

43:27

I don't know why.

I feel like when we all got married, it was much more of a conversation.

And I don't feel like people are talking about them now.

But I do just sense that there might be some women listening and who are saying, like, why did you just call that emotional affair?

So for the woman who might be dressing for a guy who might be, like craving his affirmation or his attention now more than her spouse, or the woman who might be like entertaining what seems like innocuous fantasies about, you know, him being her spouse or him and taking her on a date or her.

44:00

Him, I don't know, like the guy that you're connecting with at your office because your husband doesn't connect with you anymore.

The barista whose attention, like, makes you feel free and happy and light.

Can you speak a little bit to her?

So the most loving, and the hardest thing that I can say is that when you have desires outside of the covenant, the man that God's given you, it's actually an invitation.

44:28

It's an invitation for us to go to a new place of intimacy with the Lord.

And it's the most loving thing I could say, because that is the truth.

He doesn't hate your desires.

He doesn't hate these longings that you have.

But he is asking you to bring them to him for fulfillment, for true satisfaction, for intimacy.

44:51

And.

But the hardest part about that is that so few people will do that.

Yeah, it's so much easier to take these things to the world.

Meaning that person down the street, the barista money, the new house, you know, the next thing and none of it will satisfy.

45:08

Come on.

So that would just be my greatest, like, hope and encouragement is that if somebody hears like, you know, I have had a lot of these desires that are not being fulfilled outside of marriage, they would see that as an imitation from the Lord to come to him.

I mean, one word from Jesus changes everything.

45:28

You know, one word.

It sets us right.

He created us and all these holes that are inside of us.

Like he has such compassion for.

But I'd really believe that he'll help them to know exactly like how to move forward next and for our relationship.

45:45

Josh knows.

I mean, I do think I'm a woman of great desire and a lot of longings, but what I've learned is that he can handle all of that.

Like he can handle me saying that.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

I think the two things that come to mind with that question is one, I guess it's an invitation for the Lord to like fill that gap.

46:04

But often times the barista conversation or the Co worker, the pursuit, the relationship is meeting a need or desire you have that you may have never even articulated to your spouse because it seems vulnerable, doesn't seem like something they would do, the flirty, fun, the easy nature of it.

46:23

And so like in terms of your spouse's capacity to handle you, it's like man, it can be hard to say needs that you have that aren't getting met or feelings that you desire that you're not sharing together, that kind of stuff.

If you'll put it on the table then you can really see your your spouse step up and and serve and meet and and try to pursue you in ways that we're gonna meet a real need.

46:48

And second thing I would say is I think we tend to think those thoughts like the anticipation of seeing the Co worker or thinking about what outfit I'm gonna put on through the lens of when I'm gonna see this guy or girl.

We almost label them innocent.

47:05

Yep.

And that like I wouldn't do anything.

Of course you wouldn't.

He knows what you tell yourself.

But all of those thoughts are leading you somewhere.

And so if you can put a destination on the on the thought, like where does this take me 5 years from now?

A year from now.

47:22

OK.

I have one last quick question for you.

What would you guys say to anyone who's listening to this podcast and they're thinking like, I would read this book, I would do this work.

I don't know if my spouse would.

I would say for you to be certain to your core that God does not want you to have a mediocre or mundane marriage.

47:42

And thank.

You, Jesus, any part of you is feeling like you want to go to a new place.

If you're feeling like you want to grow, if you're feeling like, man, I wish we could see God do a new thing, but don't think your spouse is up for it yet.

Yeah, I would say in our season and it was the grace of God, and I don't know that I've always been the relational visionary.

48:04

I think Katie is much more that for our family and who we're becoming and her natural language.

But in a season where she didn't have it, God gave it to me.

And so if you have it in you to pursue, to paint a picture of what could be to go after something new, then just trust.

48:21

That's not a selfish desire.

That's not vain.

Ambition like that is God's will for your marriage.

He wants it to be an epic adventure of friendship, of intimacy, of growth.

And if you're the one with the grace to start that journey, yeah, then just trust God will bring their heart along in his time.

48:39

I'm so grateful that I get to share insider info of like and you will get it back.

Like you Katie, you have so much vision now for y'all's marriage.

Like, I feel like how kind of God I know that the story isn't like you have to white knuckle it and see past this and then you'll have to keep waving that flag for the rest of your life.

49:01

Oh.

My gosh, my favorite person, I mean, and that's the thing.

And that's what I love telling couples is that I really thought we would stay together and I would have like a pal.

Yeah, like my friend.

And instead, he is just the joy of my days.

Yeah, and truly my very, very favorite person.

49:19

And the God who authors all things, all things passion and excitement and all of that, He's the one that can also redeem and restore it.

And so I do want people to have hope that no matter what season they found themselves in, a new marriage can be theirs and they need a new marriage.

49:38

Everybody needs a second marriage, we say.

And also about the book like.

Just to clarify that everybody needs a second marriage with the same, yeah, that's.

Right.

Yeah, I should put that on there.

But I think about those.

I think in our wildest dreams, like two people are sitting in the bed and they both have this book and they're reading it at the exact same time.

49:56

Does that happen in our lives often?

No.

Most of the time one of us is reading a book, but it affects the other one so much.

If it's something that we both love, that we're learning and growing from, we're sharing it with the other one.

And then they're learning and growing and changing too.

50:12

So I would just say to who whatever picks up this book like it will start to change your relationship as you let it change and affect you.

Thank you, God.

And then the workbook is incredible.

We have to say that to people because it's a 12 week workbook.

The questions, The vision, retreat, the practicality.

50:29

So good we.

Love the workbook so much.

I do.

Believe that maybe God is calling you.

I'm talking to you, dear listener, to start a group in your home and go through the workbook with a couple of couples and it will be so impactful.

50:44

And then, yeah, you will not be alone.

And you'll all get to grow together.

That would be so powerful.

All right.

You guys are so generous.

I love you.

Thanks for fighting for my marriage.

Thank you for fighting for all of our marriages.

Katie, will you pray to?

Close this out.

Yes, Jesus, we love you so much.

51:00

I thank you for each person listening to this podcast today.

Lord, I pray that supernaturally hope will rise up in them wherever, whatever season they find themselves in, that they know that you are the author and perfecter of our lives.

You're the creator who loves us so infinitely.

51:16

We still cannot imagine the height and depth of your love.

So I thank you so much for this space and time, and I pray for each and every person under the sound of our voice that they'll feel your supernatural peace and love and joy.

Today it's in your name we pray.

Amen.

51:31

Amen.

Go to the show Notes to Join the Leaders, our learners book club.

Not only will you just get some fun insider info, but also you can ask questions throughout the month as we read this book.

You can ask questions that we're gonna have Josh and Katie answer directly in an e-mail from us.

51:50

We would love for you to join the Leaders, Our Learners Book Club and get this book today.

Friends, I'm so grateful you listened to today's episode.

Thanks for spending time with me.

It would mean the world to me to connect with you.

52:07

So you can send me Adm on Instagram at Jess A Connolly or head to my website jessconnolly.com for more ways to connect.

If you have a minute to subscribe and leave a review of the podcast wherever you listen, it would massively help us reach more people with the good news that they can live fully awake.

52:25

Let's go.